Delivering Alpha Conference Notes 2017: Robertson, Dalio, Chanos, Cooperman & More

CNBC and Institutional Investor's Delivering Alpha Conference just took place and featured many big name speakers.  Here's notes from the event itself and summaries of television interviews as well:


Delivering Alpha Conference Notes 2017


Julian Robertson (Tiger Management)

Robertson noted that interest rates need to increase because there's a bubble forming in the stock market.  Since rates are low, stocks don't really have much in the way of competition for money.  He also predicts that Trump will ask Janet Yellen to stay on as Federal Reserve Chair.

He recently got back into Alibaba (BABA).  He previously owned it at "a very low price" (seven years ago) but sold it around $100 but now he's back in.  Says it's unbelievable how the company has seen 50% in earnings.  While other investors claim it to have accounting issues, Robertson said, "It would have to be such a giant fraud.  I mean, I can't imagine anything would be that colossal."

Argued that Apple (AAPL), Facebook (FB), and Google (GOOG) are cheaper than they would have been in the 1960's, 70's or 80's.  On Netflix (NFLX), he noted "does anyone not like it?"  He said it "might be a little out of reach" now but it's still tempting him because it's run by good people and he loves it.

He likes the cruise industry, saying that "(It) has come of age.  And older people my age are attracted to the cruise ship industry.  And they are booming right now, and all over the world they are booming.  And I think they're for the golden oldies."

Robertson still also owns Air Canada: "We got into it at around 8 or 9.  And it's now 23, approaching 24, and the multiple is about the same as when we got in, which is all of five times earnings.  So we have too much Air Canada, but I can't make myself sell it."

Also noted he doesn't think he'll ever understand Bitcoin.

He also continued to share his view that part of the hedge fund crisis is exacerbated by the fact that there's so many of them now and they compete against each other.

Robertson also gave advice to the younger generations: be sure that you love the field and let that be what guides you.



Ray Dalio (Bridgewater Associates)

Dalio's biggest concerns were the following: wealth gap, social conflict, and various financial burdens (debts and pensions).

"I think we're probably in a 2.5% type of growth environment.  I mean, the real question is, to some extent, whether you can unleash the productivity by some of the changes that a pro-business environment can produce."

He thinks tax reform etc will be a watered down version and will come later.

He likened the current environment to 1937 in terms of the early stages of a tightening.

Dalio thinks that we're in an environment with a lot of conflict: political, conflict between parties, conflict between countries.  "This is very important.  This is even more important than how the tax changes are going to take place."

The Bridgewater founder then talked about balancing alpha and beta.  He said gold is essential and part of that balance.  He called it "an effective diversifier of assets" as well as "an alternative version of cash."  He feels it should be 5-10% of everybody's portfolio.

He also thinks it'd be terrible if Gary Cohn left the administration and it'd be bad for the market too.

When asked what he's most worried about, Dalio mentioned risks like North Korea, but said his bigger worry is long-term: wealth and social gap and the conflicts that arise from that.  He's worried about the various debt and pension burdens.

We also recently posted Ray Dalio's TED talk which takes you inside a meeting at Bridgewater.  He also has penned a new book, Principles.



Leon Cooperman (Omega Advisors)

He said that "Conditions that normally lead to significant market decline are either not present or not forecastable."

"The market is in a zone of fair and full valuation.  I see very few signs of exuberance."

Stocks mentioned by Cooperman include First Data (FDC), which he's owned for some time now and called very cheap.

Also, United Continental (UAL), which he felt has solid management that's identified a lot of cost opportunities.  He thinks earnings there can see around 15% over the next few years.  Operating profits could rise by 50% over the next few years and the company has bought back 2% of its shares

He also pitched two energy ideas: Hess (HES), as well as WPX Energy (WPX).  "The solution for low oil prices is low oil prices.  These two (stocks) have growing production profiles and a net asset value well above current prices at existing oil prices."  He thinks oil is headed higher to $60.  Says the sector has been overly discounted.  Says Hess in particular will increase production.

He also likes Shire (SHPG), citing its growth, positive pipeline, and the expectation of stock buybacks.

Said bonds look like they're in a bubble but at same time notes the Fed has been 'forcing people into risk' via its monetary policies.  It will change one day he says, but not yet.



Boaz Weinstein (Saba Capital)

He warned investors to avoid junk bonds.  Argued that half or a third of junk bonds today are held by retail investors, who have a ton of exposure, partly due to the rise of ETFs.  He feels the high yield market is overheated and he's short bonds of various retailers and hospitals.  At the same time, he's long equity of some of those same companies.  "Equity is at a much more rational price and credit markets are ignoring those signals."

Noted that portfolio protection is cheap but few are buying it.  "Does everyone think they can get out on the top?"



Jim Chanos (Kynikos Associates)

He says that "what's worked will continue to work" and monetary will stay easy and investors will live with the valuations.

Chanos says it's easier to find short ideas in this environment, but those ideas "don't work" due to the underlying upward trend.  He says the market was far more correlated last year than it has been this year.

He's short Continential Resources (CLR).  "People have been looking at the industry with rose colored glasses.  This is a problem with the North American shale business.  If we don't get a pickup in the company's fortunes in the back half of the year it's going to struggle."



Jeff Smith (Starboard Value)

Pitched Perrigo (PRGO), generic drug maker.  Says a lot of these products are sold on Amazon now and the company can expand sales of its over-the-counter medicines via that channel.  Shares have been undervalued from pricing pressures.

Also mentioned Altaba (AABA) as a top idea.  This is the former Yahoo stub that is left after selling the core Yahoo business.  What's left is a stake in Alibaba (BABA) and Yahoo Japan, etc.  It's basically a holding company.



Mick McGuire (Marcato Capital)

The activist investor has taken a new stake in Terex (TEX), the company that makes construction equipment.  They started buying last year and roughly own around 1.1 million shares per a recent SEC filing as they own 6% of the company

McGuire feels the company should see a revenue boost after a strategic re-positioning.  It's in the middle of an operating turnaround and is reducing SG&A, so there's operational profit upside.  The company also switched its sourcing program which could potentially save them around $500 million annually.  Thinks shares could triple, and has already doubled since he invested in 2016.



Chamath Palihapitiya (Social Capital)

The venture capitalist who now also runs public investments, said that he's massively long cryptocurrency bitcoin.  He calls the blockchain technology disruptive.

He argued that tech investors need to look at a company's ability to innvoate: "There's just this massive trade right now between the disruptors and the disrupted."  He says there's a lot of opportunity to be long disruptors and short the disrupted.



Jamie Dimon (JPMorgan Chase)

He called bitcoin worse than Tulip Bulbs and thinks it will eventually blow up.  Said he'd fire any of his traders trading bitcoin for being stupid.  Says it could go up to $100,000 before it blows up, who knows.  His daughter bought it, it went up, now she thinks she's a genius, he said.  Thinks it could be vulnerable to government intervention.

Thinks government policies are stifling growth.  If things changed, we'd see 3% growth rather than sub 2% which we've seen annualized now.  Singled out small businesses as most impacted.

Argued banks in the US are very sound at the moment.  Says the successor to JPMorgan is inside JPMorgan.



Mary Erdoes (JPMorgan Asset Management)

When asked about US stocks or bonds, she said none of the above.  Sees enormous opportunities in Europe, Japan, and emerging markets.  Thinks that some investors are worried about emerging markets due to the US dollar as an 'anchor' currency.



Steve Mnuchin (Treasury Secretary)

He says that tax reform is too important not to be passed and that it can occur this year and might even be retroactive back to the beginning of 2017.  Said the President's number one concern is North Korea and security.  Said hedge funds wouldn't have the carried interest provision under Trumps tax proposal.



Steve Schwarzman (Blackstone Group)

He's optimistic on tax reform, saying the 'worst' we'd do is a tax cut somewhere around 25-28%.

He thinks the biggest risk to markets are geopolitical, in particular North Korea.  He said "i would not be buying office buildings in Seoul" though didn't comment further on how this would affect investment decisions.

Schwarzman also argued that he relationship between China and North Korea is not friendly as it is perceived to be.  "The Chinese do not want a nuclearized Korean peninsula, and they're very serious about that.  They also don't want to have a shooting war occur and have 20 million refugees from North Korea go into China.  So it's complicated for them as to what they do."



Barry Sternlicht (Starwood Capital)

"It feels like the ocean is full of money, but it could evaporate."  Says he's most worried about potential problems from North Korea or Syria.

Delivering Alpha Conference Notes 2016: Singer, Dalio, Chanos, Miller & More

CNBC & Institutional Investor's Delivering Alpha Conference is underway and below are some notes.  This post will be updated throughout the day as the various speakers/panels are ongoing:


Delivering Alpha Conference Notes 2016

Paul Singer (Elliott Associates):  Said that it's a "very dangerous time in global markets" right now.  Argued central bank independence doesn't really exist.  Noted that Bank of Japan is basically a top-10 shareholder of various Japanese corporations but the economy hasn't rebounded.  Called it insane, "It's not working, but they keep going."  Feels that investors are careless about inflation threat.  Says sell long-term bonds.    "There will come a time when inflation, despite growth suppressive policies can blow through targets and surprise everyone."  Says we're basically in the middle of close to a 40 year experiment in how leveraged a system can be, and in how many ways.  Thinks gold as a directional asset is underrepresented in portfolios "as the only money and store of value that has stood the test of time that is, in my view, undervalued and underpriced in today's world and sort of is the opposite of confidence in central banks."


Ray Dalio (Bridgewater Associates):  Discussed ways to spur economic growth with Timothy Geithner.  Dalio says, "We're in a situation where central banks want to drive you out of cash and out of bonds."  Called it a dangerous situation, as central banks run out of assets to buy and push investors into riskier assets.  Dalio thinks raising rates is risky as it's not priced into the yield curve.  "There's only so much you can squeeze out of a debt cycle and we're there, globally."


Jim Chanos (Kynikos Associates):  Still short Alibaba (BABA), says they're "buying anything that's for sale, just burning cash."  He's also still short Tesla (TSLA) and SolarCity (SCTY).  Says the two companies combining basically puts TSLA on a path to potential bankruptcy.


Carl Icahn (Icahn Capital): Said he's requesting from the FTC the right to own up to 50% of Herbalife's (HLF) outstanding shares.  Currently has the right to around 35% of the company.  Re: the market, "I think it's very dangerous in the market right now.  If they don't raise rates, I think we're in a major bubble."  There's a problem either way with a dilemma if you raise rates or if you don't.  Says the economy is messed up because of people like Janet McCabe at the EPA.  Also: "I hate to be immodest but I've returned 28% annualized since inception."


Marc Lasry (Avenue Capital):  Said that you can "make a lot of money on direct lending," stepping in for reluctant banks.  On investing - find people who are talented / engaged / who care and invest with and then don't worry about daily/monthly liquidity.


Bill Miller (Legg Mason):  Likes Amazon (AMZN) or Facebook (FB) compared to Alphabet (GOOG/L) due to the growth rates and margins.  Thinks AMZN doubles in 3 years.  Also likes Valeant Pharmaceuticals (VRX) long, one of his larger positions.  His main trade idea was long S&P 500, short 10-year Treasury (dividend yield on S&P is higher).


Robert Bishop (Impala Asset Management):  Best idea was Teck Resources (TCK): improving China demand, management has cut costs, end of metals 5-year downtrend.  Says Freeport McMoran (FCX) still has a worrisome debt picture.


Barry Sternlicht (Starwood):  Real estate in New York City is "a disaster" with rents at the high-end down 15%.  Noted the problem many investors face: "you have to invest in something, you can't just sit in cash."  On Tesla, says he loves the car but would probably be short the company.  Questioned Pinterest's valuation, arguing it seemed like a lot of money for a bulletin board.  Said Doppler Labs could be like the next Oculus Rift.


Mary Erdoes (JPMorgan):  "They're called crowded trades when they don't work and momentum trades when they do work."  Says it's time to weed out the stock pickers who aren't the best. 


Dawn Fitzpatrick (UBS):  Likes merger-arbitrage, argues that bank prop trading desks exiting keeps spreads attractive and wide on bigger deals.  Said short-term alpha is harder and that investors need to be more patient.  Says women are less emotional investors and better at cutting losers.

Barry Sternlicht & Michael Sacks' Talk at Invest For Kids Chicago

We're posting up notes from the Invest For Kids Chicago conference 2015.  Next up is a conversation between Barry Sternlicht (Starwood Capital) and Michael Sacks (GCM Grosvenor).


Barry Sternlicht & Michael Sacks at Invest For Kids Chicago 2015

•    Barry started off at JMB working with the Bluhm family and Malkin.
 •    Left JMB in 91 and started Starwood with $21MM.  Today $51B real estate management firm.
•    Chicago as a real estate market? Great place dynamic city, lots to do. Started two hotel – (one hotel which is green), Baccarat hotel chain – sold for the highest price ever for a hotel to a Chinese buyer.
•    Mall management business based out of Chicago.
•    Pretty strong market. Don’t really play as it’s hard to understand and the supply factors.
•    Have been buying in the tax free states.
•    Agnostic to where he invests – looks for best returns but spends most of his time in real estate.
•    Wants to add value no financial engineering.
•    Buy malls and re-tenants them, redesign, etc.
•    Favorite markets/asset classes in real estate? Thinks high rise residential in midtown will be in a free fall, Arabs and Russians are gone, Chinese are fickle. Wants to short it.
•    Thinks the apartments he bought from Zell are good, a single not a home run, double digit cash flow yields.
•    Slow growth is good for them, doesn’t induce new supply and move interest rates.
•    NYC hotels overbuilt.
•    Canadians bigger tourists versus Chinese. CAD decimated.
•    LT NYC great but short term is hard.
•    REITs aren’t trading well due to flow of funds.
•    Rates up, REITs get killed due to dividend chasers.
•    Credit guys tend to be smarter, focused on cash flow versus equity guys focused on the multiple to put on cash flow which is subjective.
•    Thinks Japan is a big Ponzi scheme. ETF volume in Japan driven by government.
•    Real risk in world is central banks printing money. Printing money and buying real assets doesn’t seem kosher to him.
•    Correlations in stock market picking up.
•    Likes natural gas. Will displace coal.
•    Thinks you’ll see incredible crashes in HY market.
•    All bad actors in the world need higher oil prices.
•    Double digit cash yield on the box, bet on the demographics half of it was south Florida. Miami is the Singapore of the USA.
•    Denver as well, young people like Denver and bought Seattle. Americans not buying houses. Ppl marrying later.
•    Trillion dollars of student debt can’t afford houses.
•    Don’t intend to own those apartments purchased from Sam for 30 years just 5. Highest quality apartments in the class.


Check out the rest of the presentations from Invest For Kids Chicago 2015.

Delivering Alpha Real Estate Panel: Ackman, Sternlicht & Gray

Continuing coverage of CNBC & Institutional Investor's Delivering Alpha Conference, we're now shifting to the real estate panel featuring Pershing Square's Bill Ackman, Starwood Capital Group's Barry Sternlicht and Blackstone Group's Johnathan Gray.

If you missed it, we've also posted up notes from the other panels at the conference.

Bill Ackman (Pershing Square):  Ackman's been in the news recently regarding a new stake in Proctor & Gamble (PG) so naturally he addressed that first saying, "We think it's a great company ... it's a cheap stock, but it's cheap for a reason.  We own the stock, we like the company, we own about $1.8 billion in equity in options."

That's a lot when you frame it in the context of a $10 billion dollar fund.  Recently, Ackman was also saying his PG bet is the largest initial bet on a company he's ever made.  Many have postured that he'll look to shake-up management and examine splitting the business up.

Ackman also touched on his stake in J.C. Penney (JCP), whose shares have been in steady decline.  He argued that it's the only company that can make 15-20x return (seems awful high), attributing the sell-off to a PR problem versus fundamentals.

On the subject of real estate, he advocated buying single family homes, arguing that it's a good business and an "asset class where institutions are underrepresented."  For more from this investor, we just posted up Ackman's recommended reading list.


Barry Sternlicht (Starwood Capital):  He noted that there's enough debt financing and that spreads are tight.  He also pointed out that you don't really see foreign banks here.

Echoing Ackman, Sternlicht says they've been buying houses and thinks the market could even possibly be overbought.  On Europe, he thinks it's still the first inning there so if you get involved, you've got to buy and hold.  We've highlighted thoughts from Sternlicht before in investing lessons learned from Richard Rainwater.


Johnathan Gray (Blackstone):  They bought a lot of commercial real estate near the top of the market but said it's not painful because rents are improving (due to lack of new construction).  He believes there's some opportunity out there to buy things that others aren't interested in.  The caveat, is that financing is harder to obtain than in the past.

Blackstone obviously likes Ackman's notion of buying homes as that's what they've been doing.  Two thousand for $300 million, saying execution is key.  He especially seems to like European deals and thinks the continent is not going into an abyss.  In summary, he wants to buy hard assets at a discount to replacement cost.


Be sure to check out more insights from top investors from the conference:

- Best ideas panel

- Global opportunities panel

- Chase for yield panel

Barry Sternlicht Likes Lowe's, Toll Brothers, NVR ~ Invest For Kids Chicago Notes

At Invest For Kids Chicago yesterday, Barry Sternlicht of Starwood Capital Group gave a presentation on going long.

Be sure to check out all notes from Invest For Kids Chicago where numerous high profile hedge fund managers shared their latest investment ideas.


Likes Lowe's, Toll Brothers, NVR

Sternlicht is a successful real estate and hotel investor who founded Starwood Capital Group in 1991 and has structured 40 transactions. He says themes to invest behind right now are residential land as it's a contrarian bet and return of the US residential market is a question of when, not if. During 2007 to 2009, household formation fell well below the historical trend.

He says the problem is appraisals because of distressed sales when bank dump properties. Housing affordability is a good thing and we're building 3800-400k new homes when the real need is around 1-1.2 million. When people finally start to move there will be "pent up demand."

He likes certain homebuilders such as : Toll Brothers (TOL), Lennar, DR Horton, and NVR (NVR). TOL is his favorite along with NVR, which has limited inventory and turns its inventory better (Ryan Homes).

He says to avoid Beazer (BZH) and Hovnanian (HOV) because they could go bankrupt depending on how long the turnaround takes. This is interesting because Avenue Capital's Marc Lasry said he was long Hovnanian bonds at the same conference.


Lowe's (LOW): Sternlicht also likes LOW because the company owns 90% of its stores and benefits from housing demand. It has a diverse revenue stream and the internet can't replace things like home remodels because you need to see in-person what you're purchasing.

He notes that management is willing to repurchase 70% of share buybacks in 4 years (reminds him of Teledyne). The company is free cashflow positive and has a 2.5% dividend yield and trades at 6.5x EV/EBITDA. Pershing Square's Bill Ackman also likes LOW he revealed at a different conference yesterday.

You can view full notes from Invest For Kids Chicago here.